SPEAKER_01 0:00

Well, it's different because of all the other sensations that you don't get when you're visualizing. I mean, like I I just told you that I could go on the beach pretty much if I wanted to, but it's still not near as I don't know if it vivid is the right word, because it is pretty vivid, but it's just not the same as having all the sensations that you would have if you were literally on a beach.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

If you would like to support the efforts and research we are doing here on this podcast, make a donation using the Buy Me a Coffee link in the show notes or go to buymeacoffee.com slash Jane's brain. Thank you. Aphantasia is a condition characterized by an inability to visualize mental images in one's mind. If you have just discovered that you or someone you love has apantasia, or if you're just fascinated by the subject in general and love learning more about it, you are in the right place. The Discovering Your Mind podcast delves into all aspects of the mind's eye, including aphantasia, hyperfantasia, and everything in between. Welcome to the Discovering Your Mind Podcast, brought to you by ShaneSbrainDomain.com. I'm your host, Shane Williams, also known as Shane's Brain. Today we're talking with the one and only Pamela Topjian. Welcome to the show, Pamela. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:32

I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be here.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Yeah, I'm excited. Where are you joining us from there today, Pamela?

SPEAKER_01 1:40

I am in Northern California in the U.S. I don't know if you've got listeners outside of the U.S., but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

We do, yes. All right. What do you do for a living, Pamela?

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Well, I am a retired nurse and also I'm formerly a hypnotherapist, and now I do pet sitting. And uh I'm an author and a podcaster myself. So those are kind of like my retirement hobbies.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

Awesome. Very cool. Tell me a little bit about those.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

So the books, one is I didn't come this far to only come this far. And the other one is Behind the Mask, Gloves, and Scrubs. And they're both memoirs, sort of slash autobiographies, just about, you know, different things that I've faced in my life. And, you know, obviously the nursing one is about quitting my nursing career after 14 years and everything that I saw within the healthcare system and the reasons I quit, because I wasn't retirement age. I quit during the pandemic. So that's all about that. And then the podcast is Holistic Connections, Conversations with Holistic Practitioners. And as I mentioned, I am formerly a hypnotherapist, is what I went to after nursing. And after five years, it was really difficult. You know, the whole entrepreneurship of holistic health was really difficult. And it was just causing me too much stress, and I didn't need to take that on. And so I let that go. So now I thought to help highlight other holistic practitioners and to also help inform the public of the different, you know, holistic modalities that are out there, you know, so they can make informed decisions.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

In this episode, we will be referring to what we call the apple graph. If you are unfamiliar with what that is, you can find it on shane's braindomain.com in the A Fantasia and Beyond section. All right, well, let's dive into this here. The first thing I would like you to do is visualize a red apple in your mind. Now take a look at that chart and let me know which one of those best represents what you saw in your mind's eye.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah, so the I am very visual, uh, very vivid. So obviously number six.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

And did it go beyond that? Was it beyond a six in any way?

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah, it was more like a real apple.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Okay. Was it in 3D? Was it a 3D?

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Yeah, I would say like I almost pictured like if I was holding it in my hand.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

Okay. And can you rotate it and see it from all angles if you want to?

SPEAKER_01 4:23

I could, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Okay, very cool. When you pictured the apple, was it isolated or did a background come with it?

SPEAKER_01 4:30

It was isolated, actually. Yeah. When I first pictured it, when you first said that, I did not picture like my kitchen or my table or anything, just the apple, really.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

Okay. When I mentioned a background, did one appear?

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Yeah, my kitchen.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

All right, very cool. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Yeah, I actually I actually bought apples earlier today. So, like, even like you know, not too long ago, I was handling apples. So, you know, that might have helped as well.

SPEAKER_03 5:01

Okay. So in your mind, the handling of the apples, can you do you get the sensation of touch as well? Can you feel like you're touching the apple in your mind? Can you feel that, or is it more just visual?

SPEAKER_01 5:13

I think it's more just visual, actually. Um, like if I was to dream of an apple, or if I was in hypnosis or even a guided meditation or something, then I might get more of the physical sensations as well. But just when somebody says, imagine this in your mind, then that's just that thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:33

Okay. What about tasting the apple? Could you take a bite of it in your mind and kind of taste it?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

I could, yeah. Yeah. My mouth just watered a little when you said that.

unknown 5:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

All right. I want to talk a little bit about uh some of the words we use when it comes to this. I asked you to visualize a red apple. Do you think anything different would have happened if I had used a different word? Like if I had if I had asked you to imagine an apple or picture an apple? Are those the same things or does that matter?

SPEAKER_01 6:05

That does not matter for me. I know that it does for other people, but for me, no, it's all the same.

SPEAKER_03 6:11

Okay. What if I just asked you to think of an apple? Same thing?

SPEAKER_01 6:15

No, I don't think so. I mean, maybe sometimes it would be, but it'd be like, okay, yeah, an apple, you know, and I might like see the word like I was reading or something. But if you said think of an apple, I'd be like, okay, like there's something else. But when you say visualize or picture, then it's like, okay, that's the end of that. I'm picturing the apple, you know.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

Right. Because it's very specific what I'm asking you to do.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:39

So if you can, what's the difference between thinking of something and visualizing something?

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Yeah, it's in my, it's more of in my it's fine. I was gonna say it's more in my mind, which would make it so seem like visualizing isn't in my mind. So to say think of anything, for me, there's something else coming after. Think of an apple, and then we're gonna do this with the apple, or you're gonna bring the apple here, or or you know, something, and you know, and some bananas and this, or so I'm like, okay, and like just like waiting for the next thing. But first, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

All right, that makes sense. We use the term the mind's eye. Uh, just real quick, kind of what does that mean to you? Do you feel like you have one? And how vivid is it on a scale from one to 10?

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Like I said, I feel like I'm, you know, my mind's eye, my imagination is very vivid. I'm gonna say probably a 10 because I can't imagine it being any more real or any better than what it is.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

Uh, before you found out that a fantasia was a thing, did you just assume that everyone's internal experiences was the same as yours?

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Yeah. Yeah. It sounds kind of selfish, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

It's very, very common.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Yeah, I guess you you wouldn't think that people think differently and you know, and visualize differently and imagine. You wouldn't think of that unless you hear of it, I guess. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

Yeah, it seems to be human nature just to assume that everybody else is having the same experience. Right. Even though that's nowhere near the truth. Right, right. The next thing I'd like you to do is visualize a cow in your mind.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

Is it like looking at a picture, watching a movie, seeing it in real life, or something else?

SPEAKER_01 8:33

For the apple, I would say it was more like a picture, but for the cow, it was like in a field and it wasn't uh moving. But if I'm given a scene, I will see things like a movie uh very often. But just now for the cow, it was just like standing in a field. But yeah, just and it was, you know, one of those black and white type of cows, like your common cow that people think of when they think of a cow, even though there's all different types. What I saw right away was one of those black and white ones standing in a field.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Was it one that you'd seen before, or did you kind of create it?

SPEAKER_01 9:09

I'm not sure. I mean, my mother and my stepfather were cattle farmers for many years, but they really didn't have the black and white cows. So I don't know if it was one I've seen somewhere or not, but I think it was just came to me. I don't think it was like I don't think it was a memory.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Are the colors vibrant or muted?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Vibrant, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

What about can you give the cow wings and make it fly?

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Yeah, yeah. I have a good imagination.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

Yeah, I'm I'm really jealous of that. I think that would be so cool. All right. Is the image more clear with your eyes open or your eyes closed?

SPEAKER_01 9:52

I don't know that it matters. I don't know that it makes a difference.

SPEAKER_03 9:55

You can do it really well either way. Okay. Would you say that the cow is in your mind or is it projected out in front of you?

SPEAKER_01 10:05

I would say it's in my mind. It's almost like I have to look up, you know.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Okay. Is the image solid or transparent? Solid. And if it made a sound, could you hear it in your mind?

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Hmm. Yeah, I could hear a cow moo. But I'm not hearing it like with my ears. It's like I'm imagining. Like if I didn't know what it sounded like, I don't know that I could give it a sound or that it would make a sound, and I'd be like, oh, what's the sound it's gonna make? I don't know that I could do that, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

A lot of times when I ask people about sound, they hesitate a little bit like you did. Maybe they have to think about it more. I don't have any of the senses. So this is all kind of foreign to me. So one of the things I'm curious about is a lot of times when I ask about visualization, there's no question. I say, Can you see it? Yep, I can see it.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

When I ask about, can you hear it? Uh well, not with my ears, but with my imagination. So, what's the difference? Like when I asked you if you can see it, you didn't say, Well, not with my eyes, but you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I get that a lot. And so I'm just curious about that. What's making that difference where it's harder to tell?

SPEAKER_01 11:21

I think because like right away it comes to my mind, right away, a picture or an image or whatever I'm told to imagine or think of, you know, right there. If I have to think, if I have to hear something, I have to think and see if I if I can. Like I wasn't even sure. Like I know in dreams or like I said, like in a guided meditation or guided visualization, or um you like a hip hypnotherapy session, any of those other kinds of things where your imagination, where you're using your imagination, I know that I can hear things just as well as seeing them. But to just say, Oh, can you hear the cow? I have to see if I can, you know, I don't know if maybe if you had said there's a cow mooing in the field, can you see that? And then can you hear that? I think that if you would have said, is the cow, you know, that the cow is mooing, I that would have came to me right away and I would have heard it move. But since it was just a still cow, and then asking me if I can hear afterwards, and it's like, oh yeah, I got I could.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

But yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's so interesting because I find that all the time in these interviews that just the way I say certain things will totally influence what's happening. And before I started this, that never occurred to me that that would be a thing. So that's very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah, it's also very interesting. This is this is really amazing what you're doing, because I don't know that there's anybody else doing anything like this out there, and it's good for people to know, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

All right. What about the sense of smell? Could you smell the cow?

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Um, that's harder for me. I can smell like a scent will come to me, but it's more of like a memory. So I think that like if it was something I smelled a lot, then it would like like it would come to me if you asked me to, you know, can you like imagine the scent of roses or something? Or you know, something like that. But something that I don't smell every day or or am not near all the time, I don't know that I can. I mean, I can remember, but I don't really smell it.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

So it depends on familiarity.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Yeah, familiarity, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

All right. The next thing I would like you to do is don't think of a pink elephant.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

Were you able to successfully do that?

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yeah, yeah. Like closing a screen, like, okay, don't. That word don't is like, okay, I'm not going to.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

Oh, very cool. That's that's pretty talented for a visualizer.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yeah. I'm also a pretty good rule follower, so that might make a difference. I'm somebody that likes people who follow the rules. So you tell me don't, I'm not going to.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

Very cool. All right, cool. All right. The next thing I would like to do is visualize a room. Any room that you'd like to visualize, just any room at all.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Can you zoom outside the room and visualize the entire exterior of the building?

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

Okay. What about the entire neighborhood?

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

What about the entire city?

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Hmm. I can, but it might not be correct.

SPEAKER_03 15:01

But yeah.

unknown 15:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

Can you add any more description to that? What was kind of happening as I asked you to do those things?

SPEAKER_01 15:10

So when you asked me to visualize a room, I didn't want to do the obvious and visualize the room I'm in. So I visualized my living room, which is in another part of the house. So I saw that clearly when you asked me to see the outside of the building. I sort of like zoomed out because I think didn't you say zoom out?

SPEAKER_03 15:28

I said zoom, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Yeah. So I, you know, it wasn't like I just automatically saw the outside of the house. It was like I zoomed out, like almost like what you do on Google Maps or something. Then the same thing with the neighborhood, but the whole city, it's like, I don't know if that's correct exactly, but I can see like I can go higher in my mind's eye and see the whole city and my house being little down there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

Very cool. So when you get out to the city and you start wondering, oh, I don't quite know exactly what it looks like. Does your mind just start filling stuff in or does it leave it blank? What happens?

SPEAKER_01 16:06

So it makes it a little more vague. It's like, okay, there's buildings down there, there's other houses down there. I'm almost getting like a bird's eye view, but I don't know. Like, is that the supermarket? Is that a guest that you know what these different things are? So I'm it just gets a little more vague, not blurry, but just like I don't know what I'm looking at, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

So would you say it's more like the details aren't filled in?

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Yes, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Okay, on to the next one. Next thing I'd like you to do is visualize three green squares.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

Now visualize nine green squares.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:52

Now visualize one hundred green squares.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Well, I saw a bunch of them, but I don't know that there's a hundred.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

All right, now now try a thousand, a thousand green squares.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Okay, they're almost bunching together.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

Yeah, just again go into some detail. Tell me what it was like and what was happening and how sure you are that it was a thousand.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

So the I wasn't sure it was a thousand. I wasn't sure it was a hundred. I was sure of the three, six, nine because that's easier. And then once you get to a hundred, it's like then just like more, like it's almost like again, it's almost like it zoomed out to add more. And then it was like, well, I don't know that that's a hundred. I'm not gonna sit here and count them. And the same thing with a thousand.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Do you feel like your your mind is capable enough though to probably be pretty close to those numbers?

SPEAKER_01 17:52

No, it's because so I'm not I'm not good at math. And if I had ever seen what a thousand green squares looked like, then I might be able to be like, oh, okay, I know that this is roughly what it looks like to see a thousand green squares. But since I've never really seen that, I couldn't have. I could I can't be sure that I don't trust my mind that it gave me the thousand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

Okay. Does it bother you when a restaurant menu does not have pictures of the food?

SPEAKER_01 18:26

No, I I actually don't like the pictures of the food because that usually looks worse. I'd rather just hear read the description. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:37

So when you read the description, do you visualize it?

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Well, I'm kind of a picky eater, so there's only a few things I will eat.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

So I kind of look for those few things that I know I will eat. I don't really picture the food. If I'm reading a description of a meal that I don't know what it is, and I'm reading the description, then I am picturing it or trying to.

SPEAKER_03 19:04

How much of your visualization is what you choose to visualize? And how much of it is on autopilot and you're simply observing what's there?

SPEAKER_01 19:13

So I would say it's what I choose mostly, but like if I'm listening to a conversation, you know, or listening to an audiobook, you know, visions will pop in my mind. You know, also I've had some trauma in my life in my past, and I've had like flashbacks, which is like a movie more than like a memory or a visualization. It would be like a movie like flashing right in front of me uncontrollably. But like listening to people talk or like an audiobook or something like that, uh, sometimes even a song, if it's like a storytelling type of song, then I'll see, you know, what people are describing. It'll just pop in my mind. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

Does the effort play a role in how well you can visualize something?

SPEAKER_01 20:04

No, I don't have to try. Is that what you mean? Like I'm like, oh, I really want to see what that is, and so I'm gonna focus in on it.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

Yeah. Yeah, I've talked to other people where the more time they spend on it, the better it gets. It takes a little effort to get it going or get the detail there.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Yeah, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 20:25

Okay, can you hold your mental images for as long as you want or are they fleeting?

SPEAKER_01 20:32

It's not, I don't, I wouldn't say that they're fleeting. You know, if I want to keep looking at it, I will. I can. I I'm able to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Okay. And there's no real effort involved in that either?

SPEAKER_01 20:44

No.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

Very cool. In general, when you close your eyes, what do you see?

SPEAKER_01 20:50

It's pretty much black unless it's bright, you know. Um, like when I go to sleep at night, though, it's different. But if I'm just like here and I close my eyes, it's just like black. I can see like a little bit of light coming through because I've got lights around here. But otherwise, I don't see a whole lot just closing my eyes. I don't see anything. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

So the visualization then is optional. You can turn it off.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

Or it can be off.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Yeah, I think I think yeah, I can turn it off to make sure that I don't if I don't want to, except for like like I mentioned, like in trauma a trauma response and having like flashbacks kind of thing. Of course, that happens when you don't want it to. But otherwise, just in general, yeah, I I can turn it off.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

Right. Sounds like in general you have a lot of control.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

Okay, very cool. Can you visualize to the extent that it completely takes you out of your reality?

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yes.

unknown 21:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

Okay, in what ways can you explain that?

SPEAKER_01 21:56

I can completely like if I, you know. Visualize going to a beach and then just, you know, I can get myself to where I can feel the sand and the water and just even the sun on my face, and almost, you know, be somewhere else if I want to. So yeah, I can do that.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Again, I'm jealous.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Yeah, yeah, I know it'd be nice to go to the beach anytime you want.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

Do you feel like your visualization changes over the years? For example, was it more or less vivid as a child?

SPEAKER_01 22:31

I think that it's gotten more vivid as I've become older. And definitely the hypnotherapy courses and classes definitely helped with that because we did a lot of visualization exercises. I was very visual as a child, but I do think that it's gotten more vivid as I've gotten older. And then also started meditating as an adult. And I think that really made a big difference too. I could imagine, I had a good imagination, but I do think it's gotten better and probably easier and more vivid as I've gotten older. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

All right. Next up, I want to delve a little bit more into what I call the mind's ear.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

The uh the inner voice, the sound, the inner sounds and things like that. Just a quick description of the mind's ear that I have. Uh, the ability to hear something in one's mind, it suggests a mental sensation of sound, such as a noise, a voice, or music that is not physically present. So, based on that, do you feel like you have a mind's ear as well?

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Not near as much as I do my mind's eye. I think it with that would take effort. I think I could, you know, like if I wanted to think of a certain song or somebody's voice I hadn't heard in a long time or something, I could, but it definitely would take some effort. It'd be like, okay, I'm gonna make a decision and think about this and uh and you know, and then hear it. Yeah, it's more of like, you know, like we were saying before with the familiarity, I think it's a memory thing. I don't know that I could hear something that I hadn't heard before, you know.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

Okay. So if you were to rank that one on that scale from one to ten, where would you put it?

SPEAKER_01 24:25

I'm gonna put that one more at uh maybe around a seven.

SPEAKER_03 24:29

And real quick, I forgot to ask you earlier this question with the visual aspect, but both with the visual aspect and the hearing aspect, in what ways does it feel like reality? And which ways is it different from reality?

SPEAKER_01 24:45

That's a great question. Well, it's different because of all the other sensations that you don't get when you're visualizing. I mean, like I I just told you that I could go on the beach pretty much if I wanted to, but it's still not near as I don't know if it vivid is the right word, because it is pretty vivid, but it's just not the same as having all the sensations that you would have if you were literally on a beach.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

And the reason I asked that is because when I try and think about what that what that would be like, the only thing I have to compare it to is reality. Yeah. Right. Okay, do you have an inner monologue?

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

Okay, okay. Can you describe it a little bit, what it's like and what that phrase means to you?

SPEAKER_01 25:33

It means just talking to myself in my head. There's always something going on in there. It's not like I know I've heard people talk about how their mind is so busy and they can't turn it off. It's I'm not like that. I don't have that problem. But I'm always, it's sort of like thinking out loud of I mean, but it's not out loud. It's it's as if I was talking to myself of like what I'm doing, what I'm doing next, what time is it, what do I need to do to prepare for whatever's coming up? And just your your regular day stuff. Like I can't imagine how someone goes throughout their day without having an inner monologue. You know, I can't imagine not having that.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

Okay. And again, does it feel like you're hearing it? Does it feel audible in some way? Like, can you tell it's your voice? Can you tell the pitch of the voice? Those kind of things.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Yeah, it is. It's like listening to myself, like if I as if I was talking out loud.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

Okay. Again, there are there are different words that people use to describe their inner monologue or their inner voice. Well, that's one of them. Inner voice is one of them. Um, there's inner dialogue or self-talk. What do you think about those?

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah, when I think of self-talk, if someone uses that term, I think more of like something like affirmations or even like the opposite, like what I want to tell my my inner voice, what I want to tell myself compared to just what's automatically going on in there. Yeah. It's not thinking, it's consciously saying something that you want to tell yourself. Like I said, like almost like an affirmation or something.

SPEAKER_03 27:16

Right. It's more on purpose.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Yes, yeah, more on purpose. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

All right. So you are, I think you already mentioned this that it's not a constant thing. Again, you can kind of shut that off as well.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Yeah. Yeah. And just like then, then it's almost like, you know, are you just spacing out? Or like if you're tired, if I'm tired or or something, you know, then it then it's quieter for sure.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

Chain Sbrain is available to speak and present at your next event, conference, or assembly. For more information, go to shane sprainspeaks.com. Do you play out conversations in your mind?

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Yeah, and that's it's not a good thing. Yeah, I I only do it when I'm thinking of like things I should have said in the back, you know, in the past and things like that. Sometimes I will. Um, I have a phone call with my mother. She's in another state and she's in her 80s. I have a phone call with her every week. And so I'll think about what I can say to her, and and then I'll I'll sort of hear that in my mind, like how I would say that and what what she might say back and stuff like that. I do though, I'll hear like old old arguments and old conversations and things said that I should have responded differently, or I'll play that out, and that's not a good thing, but but that happens too.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

Okay. So when that's happening, do you hear the other person's voice as well or just your own?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

I think I do hear the other person's voice, yeah. And then I have to, then I have to tell myself, stop thinking about that. Or no, we're not going there now. You know, I I that's that's my self-talk, you know. Like I'll tell myself, no, we're not gonna think about that now, you know.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

As far as just other than voices, um, just sounds, it sounds like you can do it, but it depends on familiarity and you have to put more effort into that.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Okay. With the control aspect, we talked uh visually, you have quite a bit of control over that. Yeah, and with the voices and sounds, it sounds like you have a lot of control over that as well.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Yeah, I would say I do.

SPEAKER_03 29:32

Now I'm gonna ask a series of questions that kind of meshes it all together into thoughts. I mean, one of the things I ask people sometimes is what is a thought, right? Which is a very difficult thing to answer. It is. But are your thoughts mostly visual, mostly verbal, an equal mixture of the two, or something else?

SPEAKER_01 29:54

I would say my thoughts are much more verbal, but they're also a mix, but verbal more than anything, like that inner monologue going on.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

Are your thoughts up close and personal?

SPEAKER_01 30:09

I I'm not sure what you mean by that. Like what would what would they be if they weren't?

SPEAKER_03 30:15

For me, I describe my thoughts as distant and vague. So that would be kind of the opposite.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Well, my thoughts are mostly about what I'm doing and what I need to figure out. So I would say that's very personal. It's almost like a journal. So it is very personal to my life and what's going on in my life, like even just daily.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

All right. Do your thoughts happen one at a time or many at once?

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Um, I really think it's one at a time. It might lead to something, it might go off onto other other, you know, things. But um, but yeah, it's just one at a time. I can't imagine, you know, having more than one thought kind of at a time. That would seem, you know, that would be hard to manage.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

Yeah. And I've talked to a lot of people that that deal with that. Yeah, that's gotta be really rough. Yeah, I I talked to one lady who described it as she said, Have you ever been in in like a security room where they got the cameras all over the place? She said that's what it's like, and they're all going at the same time, and there's they're layered on top of each other, and it's just there's movies and this and this memory here, and it's all in front of me at one time. So, yeah, it's it's just amazing the different things people are experiencing and never realizing that it's unique or right different in any way.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Yeah, yeah, I don't know how people can handle that, but if it's always been part of their life, and like you said in the beginning, we always tend to think that however we are thinking is how other people are thinking as well.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

Right. And that's why I like to talk about this because you know I think I think just the realization of that, at least for me, it's helped me be a lot more patient with other people. Yeah, you know, and and less judgmental, you know. I think a lot of times people make assumptions, oh, this guy's dumb because he can't, you know, and it's it's not stupidity or it's not even laziness or a lot of the labels that we put on it, it's just just different, is all it is.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Yeah, you have no idea what's going on in someone else's mind.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

Yeah, exactly. Okay, I want to run through um these other senses again, real quick. We've talked about them real quick, but again, I want you to put them on that scale. Okay. So with the mind's nose, it's the ability to smell something in one's mind. It's just a mental sensation of smell, such as an odor, aroma, or fragrance that is not physically present. So, do you feel like you have that and put it on that scale?

SPEAKER_01 32:57

I think that's mainly from memory. And I think I can like I'm thinking of like a rose. I can smell a rose if I want to, but it's from memory. It's not like like I said, it's not something uh that I've never smelled before. I don't think I could come up with something. And that probably is I'm gonna give that a seven as well with the hearing, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 33:23

And is taste kind of along the same line as his smell?

SPEAKER_01 33:28

I would have to have tasted it before, but it can, it will come right to me much quicker, you know. Like even when you said take a bite of the apple, like my mouth, I could feel my mouth watered right away, you know. Um and uh the more we talked about it, like I could really taste an apple. And like I used to think, which is gonna sound funny, but I used to think, like when at times I've wanted to dye it, and then it's like, well, I can just imagine what a donut would taste like. I can just you know remember it and I'll be fine, you know. I don't have to actually eat it. And um, so that kind of gives you an idea with that.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

Um, does that work? Does that work for you? Like if you taste something, does it kind of satisfy the craving for it?

SPEAKER_01 34:17

I would say no.

unknown 34:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

No, it's not the same as actually having having the donut, but it's a little bit easier than like completely, you know, shutting it off. It's a little easier than completely denying yourself of it.

SPEAKER_03 34:34

Okay, that well, that's cool. That's very interesting. So on that scale of one to ten on taste, is that around a seven as well, or is that a little bit more?

SPEAKER_01 34:44

I would say that's a little bit more. I'm gonna give that an eight or a nine. All right.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

If you watch a cooking show on TV, can you kind of smell and taste the food that they're cooking?

SPEAKER_01 34:57

I think I can taste it more so than I can smell it. And then I know like, would I like that or not? I can tell because I can I can kind of imagine tasting it and seeing what it would taste like by watching them fix it. I don't get the scent right away though. You know, unless, again, like I said, if they were making something that I've made before, then I probably would. You know, that would be that memory.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

Right. Okay. Uh let's move to uh what I call the mind's fingertip. Oh uh that that tactile, textual uh type feeling. It's the ability to touch or feel something in one's mind. It suggests a mental sensation of touch, such as an embrace, a texture, a temperature, or a breeze that is not physically present. So do you feel like you have that and where would you rate it on the scale?

SPEAKER_01 35:53

I do have that somewhat, you know, like I had described the beach before and like the like the sun on my face and the sand in my on my feet, but it's not as easy. That's takes some effort to imagine being there and then feeling everything about being there. So that would be back down to that seven, probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

Okay. All right, very good. Uh now I want to talk about reading a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

So if you read a novel, is it like a movie in your mind or something else?

SPEAKER_01 36:29

It is like a movie. If if they're describing things, um, but I guess, you know, to think about it, even if like people are talking and I'm reading, you know, like a conversation in the novel, then I will kind of hear what they're saying.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

Okay. And how detailed are the characters and the surroundings?

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Well, it depends on how much they've described it. But I think that I think that even if they haven't described, you know, painted a real detailed picture, then I will kind of get one. I'll put them somewhere that I think that they are. Yeah, I guess it can be pretty detailed.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

So you so you said that you can hear the conversations happening, the characters. Where do those voices come from? Do you do you give assign those voices out of your imagination or do they sound like people you've already heard before? How does that work?

SPEAKER_01 37:23

You know, that's really interesting. Um, because earlier I was saying I don't think I could hear voices that I hadn't heard before, but I think that I do just assign voices, you know, I think that I do now that you say that. And that's something that kind of bothers me when I'm listening to an audiobook. Like if they're talking about a conversation, then it's kind of bothers me that it's the same voice for both people, right? So yeah, I guess I do sort of assign them a voice, then it's it wouldn't be somebody's voice that I know.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

Okay. So other than the the characters voices that you're hearing, do you hear any narration? Like if you read The Cow Walked Across the Street, do you hear that in your head?

SPEAKER_01 38:13

I think I just visualize what they're saying.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

Okay. If a book has characters with different accents, do you do the accents in your mind?

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

How accurate does it have to be? Like, what if you're not very good at doing the accents? Does that throw you off at all?

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Or I can't do any accent. So it's just it's going more by it's going more by like what I've heard, you know, like I've heard somebody talk like that. I've heard somebody with that kind of accent. So I would just go by that. You know, I'm thinking of like an Australian person, you know, if I if they said they were in Australia, you know, they would be have they would have an Australian accent. But I I could never do it. I wouldn't try, but I've heard like in movies and TV and whatever, I've heard people with an Australian accent. So I would just it would just I think it would just automatically come there. It's like this is how they sound, this is the accent they have. It's like, okay, there it is. They do.

unknown 39:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 39:10

So does that require any any effort? Like, does it slow you down when you read it all when you or is it just flow?

SPEAKER_01 39:18

I think it would slow me down if I didn't know what that would sound like.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

All right. So when you're reading, you're experiencing the visuals, you're experiencing the sounds, the voices. What about the other senses? Do those ever come into play at all when you're reading smell, taste, or touch?

SPEAKER_01 39:36

No, I don't think so unless they describe it. Now, if they say in the room smelled like, you know, fresh bread baking, you know, then I would probably smell that.

SPEAKER_03 39:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

But if it wasn't mentioned, I don't think I would.

SPEAKER_03 39:48

Uh, you mentioned audiobooks a couple times. Uh, do you like audiobooks better than actual reading, or which one do you like prefer?

SPEAKER_01 39:56

I prefer to read a physical book, except now I'm getting older. I have cataracts, I need surgery. So my eyes are bad. I have arthritis in my hands real bad. So just it's just a different experience. It's harder for me to read a book, but I prefer that. Also, if I'm in a hurry, like or if I have a bunch of books that I want to read, I just want to kind of get through my to-be read list, you know. Then I'll see if it's on audio book so I can listen. But I think it's a very different experience for me. So yeah, I prefer to read it because a lot more plays in my mind if I'm just reading, but if I'm listening, it's a different experience. Yeah. I'm not as involved, I don't think.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

All right. Uh, I want to move to sleep and dreams. Does your mind and your visualization or even your sounds or anything affect your ability to fall asleep?

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Yeah. My mind will just start visualizing and yeah, and just go into like the meditation mode where I like, you know, like a clean slate. Like if I find myself thinking too much and that includes visualizing too much as I'm trying to fall asleep, then I'm like, okay, we gotta just, you know, not think of anything at all.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

You know, okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

You know, there's a difference between dreaming and visualizing something while I'm still awake, and that's keeping me awake. You know, there's a difference, even though when I'm awake, I might be thinking of something and seeing it and whatever, just nonsensical, but I'm still awake, if that makes sense. Whereas like the dreams are nonsensical as well, just you know, crazy imagination dreams.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

Can you go into that a little bit more? How are they different? In which ways, in what ways do they differ?

SPEAKER_01 41:54

When I'm trying to fall asleep, it feels more like thinking. When I'm sleeping, it's definitely more of just like like a movie playing in the background.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

So are your dreams in first person or third person?

SPEAKER_01 42:10

First person for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:12

What about the other senses in your dreams? I think you mentioned that they were more prominent there in your dreams.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Yeah, it feels like I'm, you know, like I said, it's like a movie playing in the background, and I am in the first person. I'm immersed in the experience, if that makes sense. You know, I'm sort of I'm the one going through this this building or this house, or I'm the one that's creating something, or you know, so it is much more tactile and like if I'm running or walking somewhere, it's almost like I really am. Like I'm in the movie. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:50

Right. So is it safe to say it closer resembles reality than your imagination does?

SPEAKER_02 42:57

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 42:59

Okay. So if again, if you compare it to reading, it just feels more immersive, more detailed, more real.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Than what happens when you read.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Yeah. Yeah. Because when I read, it's still separate. I'm not part of that book.

SPEAKER_03 43:16

All right, let's move on to memory. Do you experience your memories in first person, third person, or can you do both?

SPEAKER_01 43:24

So, like memories from when I was so both, both, I think, like mainly from when I was a child, it's both because like I'm like imagining myself as a child almost, you know, and and I can like maybe pan out and see myself compared to like um memories from adulthood, it's more in first person because it's me. I mean, who we become as an adult is who we feel like we are, but as a kid, it's almost like that that kid, you know, that was me, but you don't feel like that same person anymore.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

I love these descriptions. That's that's beautiful. All right. Does it ever feel like you're reliving the memory? You're back there in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

So only like like I had mentioned about trauma and flashbacks, that's when you're reliving it or like nightmares of trauma events. So that's when I would feel like I was reliving. But otherwise, no.

SPEAKER_03 44:26

Do you feel like your memories are accurate?

SPEAKER_01 44:29

I do. Yep. Yeah. And like I'll know, you know, like I said, when I panned out above my house and to see my neighborhood, yes. But once I got to see the whole city, I wasn't really sure. So it's the same kind of thing. Like if I if I'm not met remembering fully, then it'll be a little more vague and a little more muted, you know. And then I'll know I'm there's something I'm not remembering about this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Okay. I've had other people tell me that, you know, their memories are very vivid, but they don't trust them because their mind is filled in things that are were not really there, not really true. Does that ever happen to you, or do you does it feel like it stays pretty accurate?

SPEAKER_01 45:13

Some things from childhood I've had to like reconfirm, you know, with with other people. Um, like ask my mom, you know, did we ever do this? Or was was that, you know, did grandma have, you know, was grandma's dog, whatever, or you know, or ask my sister things about our childhood, things that I thought I remembered, but wasn't sure, I would have to ask. But things in my adulthood, my memory would not be so clear if it wasn't true. Like I trust that my I trust that my clear memory is a true memory. If it wasn't, there would be like space. There would be like um, it wouldn't be so clear if I didn't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 45:55

Okay, yeah, that does make sense. Goes back to the city thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

Along those same lines, do you feel like you would make a good court witness?

SPEAKER_01 46:04

I do. You know, I think that when you are in a if it's a really traumatic situation, and like if you're involved in it compared to watching it, like if I watched a crime take place, I would be a great witness. But if I was involved in it, I'm not sure because I don't know how much that would affect me. I'm not I'm not sure about that. But I would know, like if I if I knew that I remembered, then I would know that I'm remembering. But otherwise I'd be like, I don't really recall because I would know that I didn't. I I don't think I my mind would fill in things.

SPEAKER_03 46:41

Okay, great. Yeah, it does sound like you'd make a great court, maybe I hope I don't ever have to, but okay. Next up we got mind storage.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 46:55

How would you describe how your mind stores information?

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Hmm. How would I describe that my mind stores information?

SPEAKER_03 47:04

This one can be hard, but it can also be really interesting. I guess to help you along, here's some follow-up questions. Do you associate your mind with an area or a space somewhere you can go?

SPEAKER_01 47:17

I feel like it's an internal space, like I can like search my mind for something I'm trying to remember.

SPEAKER_03 47:25

Okay, and how does that work? How is that working? How is that happening? Can you put your finger on it, or is it kind of happening beside behind the scenes and you don't really know?

SPEAKER_01 47:34

So if I'm trying to remember something, I will lead myself up to it. So in my mind, I'm like, say if you lost an object, I'm gonna go back to where I was when I last had it, kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

Are there different rooms or compartments in your mind?

SPEAKER_01 47:54

I don't think so. I don't feel that way.

SPEAKER_03 47:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

It's not like I go here for this kind of a thing or there for that kind of a thing. And I know people have described things of like almost like a file cabinet or like organized closet or something. I don't, I don't have that kind of a visualization for my mind.

SPEAKER_03 48:13

Okay. Does how you visualize affect how you performed in your career or your hobbies at all? Does that come into play? Do you feel like it affects it?

SPEAKER_01 48:24

It must. I mean, I like to paint and I will watch a lot of artists, you know, people who are who are more than a hobby painter. I will watch a lot of videos of them painting, and then I'll try to, when I'm painting and I'm trying to get a certain look, I will visualize what they did.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

Okay. So you kind of replay that.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

Right. So you can see what's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

And sometimes when I'm watching, I'll make like a mental note. It'll be like, oh, I want to remember that, you know, and I'll just like it'll almost like replay again and like, okay, I got it. And then, you know.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

So that that goes back to the the storage aspect. If you say, Okay, I I want to make a note of that, this is something I want to remember. Does your mind just somehow store that in a way that you don't quite understand? And it's just easy to pull it back.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

It's so say I'm watching somebody do a painting and I'm like, oh, I want to make a mental note of that. I mean, that would be my internal dialogue. It'll be like, oh, let's remember this. And it'll almost play right back, like right after I watch it and I say that to myself, it'll play back in my mind. So it's like imprinting almost. I never really feel like it's stored in a certain spot or anything.

SPEAKER_03 49:43

Right. And then when you want to call it back, that's just a mental cue, like, hey, come back and it comes back.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

Yeah, yeah. Then I'm like, oh yeah, that one painter I was watching, I want to use that here. You know, and that's my internal dialogue. You know, it's like, oh yeah, what did they do? Oh yeah, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:00

Okay. What do you think are some of the upsides and some of the downsides about how your mind works?

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Um, I think some of the downsides would be like those, you know, those flashbacks and that it would be much easier and nicer if I didn't have that. Some of the upsides would be I don't know what my life would be if I wasn't able to meditate, which is kind of the opposite of what we're talking about, because like I'm not, I'm able to totally go blank, uh, you know, sort of when I want to. But I love being able to think about going to the beach, you know, and being able to almost be there in my mind's eye. And I love to think about, you know, to almost, you know, replay, you know, a good day and something like that. So, you know, that's that stuff is good.

SPEAKER_03 50:48

All right, last question. If you woke up tomorrow and had aphantasia, how do you think it would affect your life?

SPEAKER_01 50:55

I would think something was really wrong with me. I would think I would be shocked and I would be really worried, and I'd probably make an appointment with a therapist or the doctor or something. Like, dude, I have a brain injury or something, because now I yeah, it's that would be, I cannot even imagine not being able to imagine.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:16

Right. Somebody else told me a similar thing. It's like, I can imagine anything you ask me to imagine, except for the lack thereof.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

Yeah, yeah, very good. I I agree.

SPEAKER_03 51:30

All right, Pamela, that is pretty much it. Is there anything else you would like to say before we sign off?

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Uh, this is just so fascinating, and I can't wait to listen to more of your podcast because this is just such fascinating information. How everybody's so different in their mind. I love it. I love it. So thank you for letting me be a part of it and thank you for what you're doing. It's super interesting.

SPEAKER_03 51:56

You're welcome, and thank you so much for coming on. I really enjoyed this one. It was a lot of fun. Uh, you're very articulate and had some great answers. And as always, uh, you said some stuff I've never heard anyone say before, which is always part of the fun part for me. So I really appreciate your time and your uh answers, and I hope you have a fantastic day.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Thank you. Thank you. You as well.

SPEAKER_03 52:24

If you like what you hear, please subscribe, follow, and engage with us, and share it with your friends and family as we continue to explore this fascinating subject. For additional information about this episode or Shane's brain, check out the show notes. Thanks for listening to the Discovering Your Mind podcast. You are beautifully unique.